Comprehensive Retinue Comparisons for Horse Lords 2.4.x

[Peter Kirby]

Quite a lot has changed with combat in the latest patch, so a lot of information floating around online is strictly out of date. Because the whole combat system is quite opaque and as a personal challenge, I have been putting together a spreadsheet over the last few days that should provide the most comprehensive and accurate estimation of the value of different units in the CK2 combat system yet assembled (not just for this patch, but for any patch).

It overcomes some of the weaknesses of approaches people have taken in the past: ignoring defense, overvaluing morale, ignoring phase proportions (skirmish/melee), ignoring the tactical affinity distribution typical in AI levies (e.g., Stand Fast and Volley dominant), or not really attempting to work out the math at all. That said, it is not a true simulator. Some deficiencies of the approach are noted at the bottom of the spreadsheet, but I'm already pushing the limits of my determination (heh) and of a spreadsheet as it is.

All that said, here you go--a fairly comprehensive retinue survey:

Crusader Kings 2 Retinues - Horse Lords 2.4
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GUmYlDxNaIEi-OcdKm4c7AywsLr2m6fsvcusWQfORf0/

Allow me to summarize a little. Full details (and more combinations) are in the spreadsheet. The numbers on the left and the overall order are based on an enemy levy of fixed size (and thus varying relative size, due to varying retinue cap cost per unit). In parentheses are numbers for an enemy levy 50% larger than the retinue (i.e., smaller armies of more expensive units get paired against fewer opponents--equivalently, you could say that the retinue cap cost is ignored and only per-unit value is considered).

Top Tier (Survivors > 90%)

93.51% -- Schiltron, Scottish commander -- (92.02% Against 50% Larger Enemy) -- "low pursuit"
90.62% -- Camel Cavalry -- (95.13% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
90.35% -- Dutch - 3 Defense : 1 Goedendag -- (84.66% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
90.22% -- Italian Pike, Italian commander, Forrest terrain -- (88.27% Against 50% Larger Enemy) -- "low pursuit"

Great Tier (Survivors > 85%)

88.01% -- Suebi Longspearman -- (61.29% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
87.51% -- Goedendag Militia -- (24.82% Against 50% Larger Enemy) -- "poor use of supply limit"
86.65% -- Druzhina -- (91.95% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
85.97% -- Gallowglass -- (91.55% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
85.40% -- Baltic Warrior -- (91.22% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
85.89% -- Andalusian Cavalry, Tengri -- (95.13% Against 50% Larger Enemy)

Very Good Tier (Survivors > 80%)

84.84% -- Berber Cavalry, Tengri -- (94.10% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
84.28% -- Hussars, Tengri -- (93.76% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
84.29% -- 16 Defense : 1 Longbow -- (80.72% Against 50% Larger Enemy) -- "low pursuit"
84.15% -- 20 Defense : 1 Nubian Archer -- (80.58% Against 50% Larger Enemy) -- "low pursuit"
84.12% -- 12 Defense : 1 Steel Bow -- (82.11% Against 50% Larger Enemy) -- "low pursuit"
80.48% -- Frankish Heavy Infantry -- (88.32% Against 50% Larger Enemy)

Good Tier (Survivors > 75%)

79.99% -- Berber Cavalry -- (92.31% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
79.60% -- Housecarl, Non-North German commander -- (87.77% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
79.76% -- Hussars -- (91.83% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
79.60% -- 3 Defense : 1 Light Skirmish -- (62.65% Against 50% Larger Enemy) -- "very viable generic mix"
79.47% -- Generic Defense -- (75.31% Against 50% Larger Enemy) -- "low pursuit"
79.00% -- Lombard Heavy Infantry -- (87.47% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
78.84% -- Bar Kochba Guards -- (87.29% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
75.50% -- Jaguar Warrior -- (23.35% Against 50% Larger Enemy) -- "poor use of supply limit"
78.42% -- Andalusian Cavalry -- (92.17% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
78.16% -- 4 Defense : 2 Shock : 1 Skirmish -- (81.44% Against 50% Larger Enemy) -- "recommended generic mix"
75.19% -- Housecarl, North German commander -- (85.44% Against 50% Larger Enemy)

"Okay" Tier (Survivors > 70%)

72.20% -- Generic Cavalry Retinues, Byzantine commander, Heroic Countercharge, Tengri -- (91.29% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
72.10% -- Generic Cavalry Retinues, Heroic Countercharge, Tengri -- (91.28% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
70.74% -- Welsh/English Archer Retinues + Commander -- (25.10% Against 50% Larger Enemy) -- "poor use of supply limit"
70.30% -- Gusar, Frankish (etc.) commander, Heroic Countercharge -- (91.81% Against 50% Larger Enemy)

"Sub-Standard" Tier (Survivors > 65%)

69.30% -- Nubian Archer Retinues, Welsh/English Commander -- (24.44% Against 50% Larger Enemy) -- "poor use of supply limit"
66.94% -- Horse Archer Retinues, Altaic commander, Tengri -- (89.01% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
65.91% -- Generic Cavalry Retinues, Heroic Countercharge -- (89.38% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
65.46% -- Knights, Frankish (etc.) commander, Heroic Countercharge -- (91.58% Against 50% Larger Enemy)

"Poor" Tier (Survivors > 55%)

59.36% -- Horse Archer Retinues, Altaic commander -- (86.81% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
55.94% -- Generic Archer Retinues -- (24.47% Against 50% Larger Enemy) -- "poor use of supply limit"
55.85% -- Generic Cavalry Retinues -- (87.90% Against 50% Larger Enemy)

"Painful" Tier (Survivors < 55%)

53.36% -- Cataphracts, French/German/etc. commander -- (91.13% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
45.17% -- Cataphracts -- (90.07% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
41.14% -- Cataphracts, Byzantine commander -- (89.62% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
Battle Lost (Below 25%) -- Horse Archer Retinues, non-Altaic commander, Tengri -- (63.95% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
Battle Lost (Below 25%) -- Horse Archer Retinues, non-Altaic commander -- (46.51% Against 50% Larger Enemy)

That's it for retinue comparisons. There are more options and combinations that are not compared, but they are nowhere close to optimal. One thing that you don't want to do (if optimizing the retinue flank) is to choose a cultural retinue blindly. Some of them are much better than the generic retinues, some are better when all the cultural buildings have been built in the capital, and some are still not as good even then.

Here's a guide to finding your optimal retinue type (assuming that you will build the cultural buildings in the capital):

Choose the Cultural Retinue, if you have these Pikeman, Heavy Infantry, or Light Cavalry retinues:

Schiltron, Italian Pike, or Suebi Longspearman
Camel Cavalry, Andalusian Cavalry, Berber Cavalry, or Hussars
Druzhina, Gallowglass, Baltic Warrior, Frankish Heavy Infantry, Lombard Heavy Infantry, Housecarl, or Bar Kochba Guards

Choose a Mix of Generic and Cultural Retinues, if you have these Light Infantry or Archer retinues:

Dutch - 3 Defense : 1 Goedendag
Welsh or English - 16 Defense : 1 Longbow
Nubian - 20 Defense : 1 Nubian Archer
Indo-Aryan or Dravidian - 12 Defense : 1 Steel Bow
West African - 3 Defense : 1 Free Warrior
Ethiopian - 3 Defense : 1 Ethiopian Skirmisher
Pictish - 3 Defense : 1 Pictish Raiders

Choose a Suggested Generic Mix, (if you want to optimize and) if you have:

Knights
Gusar
Cataphracts
Horse Archers
Jaguar Warriors

Nomadic Armies

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/nomad-regiments-stats.872205/#post-19675012

250 LC - 10 Prestige
225 LC and 25 HA - 20 Prestige
200 LC and 50 HA - 25 Gold
150 LC and 100 HA - 50 Gold
200 LC and 50 HC - 50 Gold
100 LC and 150 HC - 75 Gold
250 HA - 75 Gold
200 LC and 50 Elephants - 100 Gold - Only in India region
100 LC and 150 Camels - 50 Gold - Need to have Capital in desert terrain
250 HC - 100 Gold - Western and Southern Europe region only

There's been some discussion about nomadic armies, both when used against other hordes and against non-hordes (not that you really need to fiddle around to win battles). I've only done the math for the non-horde comparison, but there are some notes on the spreadsheet about fighting horde AI opponents (by coincidence, they mostly happen to be vulnerable to the same troops that non-horde AI are). Instead of being evaluated against their retinue cap cost, they are evaluated on a manpower basis (which is similar to evaluating for the size of a retinue, which depends on retinue cap costs per unit).

All Buildings, Full Cavalry Tech -- Non-Nomadic Enemy Size 300% of Nomadic Army (3x)

90.72% -- Pure Heavy Cavalry, French/German/etc. commander -- (96.92% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
78.14% -- 80% Light Cavalry / 20% War Elephants, Tengri -- (94.35% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
73.80% -- 40% Light Cavalry / 60% Camel Cavalry, Tengri -- (96.04% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
65.99% -- Pure Horse Archers, Altaic commander -- (93.32% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
62.77% -- 90% Light Cavalry / 10% Heavy Cavalry, Tengri -- (94.26% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
43.74% -- Pure Light Cavalry, Tengri -- (94.08% Against 50% Larger Enemy)

Starter Options, No Buildings, 15% Tech -- Non-Nomadic Enemy Size 150% of Nomadic Army (1.5x)

90.11% -- 40% Light Cavalry / 60% Heavy Cavalry (Against 50% Larger Enemy)
89.63% -- 90% Light Cavalry / 10% Heavy Cavalry, Tengri (Against 50% Larger Enemy)
89.16% -- Pure Light Cavalry, Tengri (Against 50% Larger Enemy)
86.77% -- 90% Light Cavalry / 10% Heavy Cavalry (Against 50% Larger Enemy)
84.79% -- Pure Light Cavalry (Against 50% Larger Enemy)
83.54% -- Pure Horse Archers, Altaic commander (Against 50% Larger Enemy)

You have four decent options for building a force with a minimum of 10% Heavy Cavalry:

Using five 250 LC for every one 100 LC and 150 HC -- 8 prestige and 15 gold per 250 manpower
Using one 250 LC for every one 200 LC and 50 HC -- 5 prestige and 25 gold per 250 manpower
Using entirely 200 LC and 50 HC (80% LC / 20% HC) -- 50 gold per 250 manpower
Using entirely 100 LC and 150 HC (40% LC / 60% HC) -- 75 gold per 250 manpower

The first two options both result in 90% Light Cavalry and 10% Heavy Cavalry. The first option saves more gold (and costs more prestige). The third option (which has 20% Heavy Cavalry) is a little damage/manpower boost, costs more gold, and costs no prestige. The fourth option (which has 60% Heavy Cavalry) is a larger damage/manpower boost and costs the most gold.

A minimum of 10% heavy cavalry is required for favorable tactics to fire, and specifically you need to have the "heroic countercharge" tactic available for this to be a superior fighting force to pure light cavalry. Heroic Countercharge fires most often when using a commander with martial 14+ who has the "Aggressive Leader" or "Brave" or "Cavalry Leader" traits. This is one of the more flexible favorable traits, so it shouldn't be too hard to field a few of these commanders with the mixed HC and LC troops, for a slight edge over pure LC.

Whether using pure Light Cavalry or a mix of Light and Heavy, "Cruel" commanders (for "Charging Own Skirmishers") give a nice little boost if and when your flank charges into melee this way.

Nothing comes close to the power of pure heavy cavalry, manpower for manpower, once you can move your capital. They are even more destructive when under the direction of a French, German, Occitan, Norman, or Breton commander (enabling "Couched Lance Formation" allowing a +420% Heavy Cavalry offensive modifier).

Making the Most of Mercenaries and Commanders

There's a lot to know about the types of commanders to use, as well as how to use terrain, attrition, and other strategies to your advantage in a war. Most of this has been covered well by other guides, but I will talk a little bit about commanders here, as well as about combining your retinues (when they are still small) with certain types of mercenaries (if you have them available) in order to buy yourself into an empire-worthy retinue+mercenary breakthrough flank even when you are still just a lowly duke. Only some types of mercenaries combine well with defense retinues.

If you can't get a Scottish or Italian commander (which are best), it's slightly better to fight on forest. For the breakthrough retinue + merc flank, you want a commander with high martial (16+) and the most advantageous commander traits: Heavy Infantry Leader, Flanker or Direct Leader, Terrain Leader (any), and (if applicable) Holy Warrior. Of other positive modifiers, Patient is nicest of the bunch (+10% defense). Avoid traits with any associated tactics for the breakthrough flank (see http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Combat_tactics).

For the other two levy flanks, focus on defensive traits for the commanders, or the traits that boost a rag-tag bunch of misfits. Inspiring Leader, Direct Leader or Flanker, Narrow Flank Leader, Light Foot Leader (for all the light infantry and archers in levies), Defensive Leader, Unyielding Leader, Terrain Leader (matching the breakthrough flank), and (slightly best of all) Holy Warrior. Brave and Patient also help. Be sure to put one levy flank in the center with an "Inspiring Leader" (triggers "inspired defense" and "religious fervor" tactics). You can also get "religious fervor" with possessed and zealous traits, which help.

For the mercenaries, you're looking for the ones that have no heavy cavalry and no horse archers (they trigger undesirable tactics in the Charge and Swarm categories). That means exclusively pikemen, heavy infantry, archers (because archers are unavoidable), possibly light infantry, and possibly light cavalry.

These mercs meet the description (in descending order of desirability - notations for heavy infantry, pikemen, archers, light cavalry, and light infantry):

Swiss mercs - 40% HI, 40% PM, 20% A (no Light Cavalry - no "Raid" melee tactic)
Saxon mercs - 50% HI, 10% PM, 30% A, 10% LI (no Light Cavalry - no "Raid" melee tactic)
Breton mercs - 40% HI, 20% PM, 20% A, 20% LC
Lombard mercs - 40% HI, 20% PM, 20% A, 20% LC
Navaresse mercs - 50% HI, 20% A, 10% LC, 20% LI
Catalan mercs - 40% HI, 20% A, 20% LC, 20% LI

This list should be enough to field a large-enough force... if they are available... make sure to combine it with a pure "defense" retinue (250 PM / 50 A) on a side flank with your best commander (noted above).

Note that this flank composition, if mercs are necessary to increase army size, is the best at taking down both AI-controlled hordes and AI-controlled feudal, republic, or tribal players. The only difference is that you will strongly prefer an Italian commander on the breakthrough flank, instead of a Scottish commander, when fighting against regular non-horde levy armies (Advance > Stand Fast, the AI non-horde levies spend approximately 50% of their time in Stand Fast in melee, and Italian commanders will fire Advance tactics more often).

Italian commanders also tend to rely less on RNG than the Scottish ones, although the Schiltron Formation is amazing when it happens (even though it happens less often). Fighting in the forest also tends to reduce your dependence on RNG, and it is always best if you don't have a Scottish or Italian commander... though it may have slightly lower average numbers when using a Scottish or Italian commander. Prudence dictates that using Italian commanders, fighting on the forest, are the best bet in the final analysis; after all, the most important thing is minimizing the chance of a lost battle.

Do pay attention, though, to the list of traits to seek and to avoid. And always make sure to be careful about any loose heavy cavalry or horse archers in the breakthrough flank; they will ruin the composition and fire inappropriate tactics. Avoiding archers or light cavalry is nice, but more difficult and less important. (The retinues to field here are Schiltron, Italian Pike, or generic Defense. The mercs are listed above.)

List of Traits to Seek for a "Breakthrough" Flank of mainly Pikemen or Pike+HI+Archer+LC (retinue+merc)

Heavy Infantry Leader
Direct Leader
Flanker
Terrain Leader (if appropriate)
Holy Warrior (if appropiate)
Winter Leader (if appropriate)
Patient

List of Traits that Are Good if You Have Light Cavalry (but not critical for pikeman and bad for heavy infantry)

Cruel ("Charging Own Skirmishers" -- Heavy Cavalry Offensive +300%, Light Cavalry Offensive +180%)

List of Traits to Avoid Always, Always, Always for a "Breakthrough" Flank

Slothful ("Hesitant Commander": Melee, 18 days, -150% Heavy Infantry Offensive, -150% Heavy Cavalry Offensive)
Shy ("Hesitant Commander": Melee, 18 days, -150% Heavy Infantry Offensive, -150% Heavy Cavalry Offensive)
Craven ("Timid Advance": Melee, 18 days, Pikeman Offensive 120%, Heavy Infantry Offensive -210%) [if you have Heavy Infantry]
Organizer ("Timid Advance": Melee, 18 days, Pikeman Offensive 120%, Heavy Infantry Offensive -210%) [if you have Heavy Infantry]

List of Traits to Avoid Also for an Optimal, Pure "Breakthrough" Retinue Flank (But Not Really Bad)

Possessed ("Religious Fervor" -- "only" 150% to every offensive
Zealous ("Religious Fervor" -- "only" 150% to every offensive
Inspiring Leader ("Religious Fervor" -- "only" 150% to every offensive

List of Traits to Avoid if you have archers (but not critical for an infantry-focused flank):

Lisp ("Confused Orders" -- Skirmish phase, 18 days, Archers Offensive -120%
Stutter ("Confused Orders" -- Skirmish phase, 18 days, Archers Offensive -120%

List of Traits to Avoid if you have heavy infantry (but not a huge difference)

Wroth ("Reckless Charge") -- Skirmish phase, 6 days, change to melee, "only" 60% heavy infantry offensive
Aggressive Leader ("Reckless Charge") -- Skirmish phase, 6 days, change to melee, "only" 60% heavy infantry offensive
Cruel ("Charging Own Skirmishers" -- Skirmish phase, 6 days, change to melee, no heavy infantry bonus

These are not complete lists of tactic effects; check the wiki for that.

The most important thing to do here is to check for and AVOID Slothful, Shy, Craven, and Organizer (or just Slothful and Shy if you don't have any heavy infantry). This applies in general but especially applies to the "breakthrough" flank. The rest will not make or break your battle but are merely little things you can do to optimize (but you can't always get a perfect commander). And, of course, pick up good traits and an adequate martial ability of 16 or higher.

Between 16 and 24-ish, martial ability is strictly a tiebreaker when picking a commander. It offers a flat bonus to damage (which is added together with the tactical affinity bonus and multiplied against everything else) and enhances traits, but it is usually more important to look at the traits themselves.

Hopefully these notes help anyone interested in optimizing their retinue+merc flank.

And I hope the spreadsheet is useful or interesting in general... I put a lot of work into it!

PS-- For checking things, these three pages were constantly referenced:

http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Combat
http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Retinues
http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Combat_tactics

If you want to sit down with it sometime, it's a good idea IMO to print these out (especially the third one) and have it with you while you play the game.

Let me know if there's anything I've missed, or if you have any questions. Go here for the spreadsheet intended for public viewing ... or go here and here if you'd like to review the original spreadsheets with all the code and formulas (but it's a little messy or confusing and doesn't always load right).

 

[Peter Kirby]

PS -- the OP has been updated to include the effect of cultural buildings in the capital. This post has been updated to copy over some of the lists (based on the game files) of those bonuses (originally posted further down in this thread).

If you combine the data about the "starter" bonuses with the maxed-out cultural buildings in the capital holding, you get the following (ignoring "generic" retinues).

Note that the data is displayed as: zero buildings / first building / second building / third building / fourth building. The cumulative figure is calculated.

Longbow -- Welsh and English

+20% / +35% / +50% / +65% / +80% Archers Offensive
+10% Archers Defensive

Schiltron -- Scottish

+20% Pikemen Offensive
+40% / +55% / +70% / +85% / +100% Pikemen Defensive
+20% Pikemen Morale

Baltic Warrior -- Baltic group and Finno-Ugric group

+30% / +45% / +60% / +75% / +90% Heavy Infantry Defensive
+10% Heavy Infantry Morale

Horse Archer --- Altaic group and Iranian group

+20% / +30% / +40% / +50% / +60 Horse Archers Offensive
+12% / +17% / +22% / +27% / +32% Horse Archers Morale

Knight -- French, German, Occitan, Norman, and Breton

+10% / +25% / +40% / +55% / +70% Heavy Cavalry Offensive
+10% Heavy Cavalry Defensive
+20% Heavy Cavalry Morale

Caballero -- Iberian group

+20% / +35% / +50% / +65% / +80% Light Cavalry Offensive
+20% Light Cavalry Morale

Pike -- Italian

+20% Pikemen Offensive
+20% Pikemen Defensive
+40% / +55% / +70% / +85% / +100% Pikemen Morale

Druzhina -- Russian

+10% Heavy Infantry Offensive
+50% / +65% / +80% / +95% / +110% Heavy Infantry Defensive
+20% Heavy Infantry Morale

Housecarl -- North Germanic group and Saxon

+40% / +55% / +70% / +85% / +100% Heavy Infantry Offensive
+20% Heavy Infantry Morale

Hussar -- Hungarian and West Slavic group

+60% / +75% / +90% / +105% / +120% Light Cavalry Defensive
+20% Light Cavalry Morale

Camel Warrior -- Bedouin, Egyptian, Levantine

+20% Camel Cavalry Offensive
+20% / +35% / +50% / +65% / +80% Camel Cavalry Defensive
+20% Camel Cavalry Morale

Andalusian Cavalry -- Andalusian

+20% / +30% / +40% / +50% / +60% Light Cavalry Offensive
+40% / +50% / +60% / +70% / +80% Light Cavalry Defensive
+20% / +30% / +40% / +50% / +60% Light Cavalry Morale

Berber Cavalry -- Maghreb

+50% / +60% / +70% / +80% / +90% Light Cavalry Offensive
+0% / +10% / +20% / +30% / +40% Light Cavalry Defensive
+30% / +40% / +50% / +60% / +70% Light Cavalry Morale

Cataphract -- Byzantine group

+10% / 17.5% / 25% / 32.5% / 40% Heavy Cavalry Offensive
+10% Heavy Cavalry Defensive
+20% Heavy Cavalry Morale
+0% / +7.5% / 15% / 22.5% / 30% Horse Archer Offensive

Gallowglass -- Irish

+40% / +55% / +70% / +85% / +100% Heavy Infantry Defensive
+20% Heavy Infantry Morale

Ethiopian Skirmisher -- Ethiopian

+50% / +65% / +80% / +95% / +110% Light Infantry Offensive
+30% Light Infantry Defensive

Somali Skirmisher -- Somali

+40% Light Infantry Offensive
+40% / +55% / +70% / +85% / +100% Light Infantry Defensive

Free Warrior -- West African group

+60% / +75% / +90% / +105% / +120% Light Infantry Offensive
+10% Light Infantry Defensive
+10% Light Infantry Morale

Gusar -- South Slavic group

+10% / 17.5% / 25% / 32.5% / 40% Heavy Cavalry Defensive
+10% Heavy Cavalry Morale
+20% Light Cavalry Offensive
+20% / +27.5% / 35% / 42.5% / 50% Light Cavalry Defensive

Goedendag Militia -- Dutch

+30% / +37.5% / 45% / 52.5% / 60% Pikemen Offensive
+20% Pikemen Defensive
+10% Pikemen Morale
+20% / +27.5% / 35% / 42.5% / 50% Light Infantry Offensive
+20% Light Infantry Defensive
+10% Light Infantry Morale

Jaguar Warrior -- Nahua

+20% Heavy Infantry Offensive
+10% / +25% / +40% / +55% / +70% Heavy Infantry Morale
+40% Light Infantry Offensive
+20% Light Infantry Morale

Bar Kochba Guards -- Israelite

+20% Heavy Infantry Defensive
+10% / +25% / +40% / +55% / +70% Heavy Infantry Morale

Steel Bow Infantry -- Indo-Aryan group and Dravidian group

+10% Archers Offensive
+30% Archers Defensive
+15% / +20% / +25% / +30% War Elephants Offensive
+0% / +10% / +20% / +30% War Elephants Defensive

Nubian Archers -- Nubian

+20% Archers Offensive
+20% / +35% / +50% / +65% / +80% Archers Defensive

Frankish Heavy Infantry -- Frankish

+20% / +35% / +50% / +65% / +80% Heavy Infantry Offensive
+10% Heavy Infantry Defensive
+10% Heavy Infantry Morale

Lombard Heavy Infantry -- Lombard

+10% / +25% / +40% / +55% / +70% Heavy Infantry Offensive
+10% Heavy Infantry Morale

Suebi Longspearman -- Suebi

+30% Light Infantry Defensive
+20% / +27.5% / 35% / 42.5% / 50% Light Infantry Morale
+30% Pikemen Defensive
+20% / +27.5% / 35% / 42.5% / 50% Pikemen Morale

Pictish Raiders -- Pictish

+30% Light Infantry Offense
+10% Light Infantry Defense
+20% / +35% / +50% / +65% / +80% Light Infantry Morale
+10% Archer Offense
+10% Archer Morale

And here are the nomad buildings (with unit bonuses).

Lamellar Armor Crafter

+5% / +10% / +16% / +23% / +31% / +40% / +50% / +60% Defensive (all units)

Horse Breeder

+3% / +6% / +10% / +15% / +20% / +25% / +30% / +35% Heavy Cavalry Defensive
+3% / +6% / +10% / +15% / +20% / +25% / +30% / +35% Light Cavalry Defensive
+3% / +6% / +10% / +15% / +20% / +25% / +30% / +35% Horse Archers Defensive

Riding Contests

+4% / +8% / +12% / +17% / +22% / +27% / +33% / +39% Heavy Cavalry Offensive
+4% / +8% / +12% / +17% / +22% / +27% / +33% / +39% Light Cavalry Offensive
+2% / +4% / +7% / +10% / +14% / +19% / +24% / +30% Global Movement Speed

Hunting Parties

+4% / +8% / +12% / +17% / +22% / +27% / +32% / +38% / +44% Horse Archers Offensive

Composite Bow Crafter

+10% / +20% / +30% / +40% / +50% / +60% / +70% / +80% Horse Archers Offensive
+10% / +20% / +30% / +40% / +50% / +60% / +70% / +80% Archers Offensive

Camel Breeder

+10% / +20% / +30% / +40% / +50% / +60% / +70% / +80% Camel Cavalry Defensive
+0% / +0% / +0% / +0% / +0% / +10% / +20% / +30% Camel Cavalry Offensive

Elephant Camp

+10% / +20% / +30% / +40% / +50% / +60% / +70% / +80% War Elephants Defensive
+0% / +0% / +0% / +0% / +0% / +10% / +20% / +30% War Elephants Offensive

And morale bonuses only:

Wrestling

+3% / +6% / +9% / +12% / +16% / +20% / +24% / +28% Morale (all units)

Baghatur Council

+2% / +4% / +6% / +8% / +10% / +12% / +15% / +18% Morale (all units)

If you built all the buildings (and let's not worry about the incompatibility of elephant and camel buildings--you'll use one or the other or neither), you'd have:

+30% Global Movement Speed

+46% Morale (all units)

+60% Defensive for "infantry+pikes+archer" / "non-cavalry" types (non-LC/HC/Camel/Elephant)
+80% Archers Offensive

+39% Heavy Cavalry Offensive
+95% Heavy Cavalry Defensive

+39% Light Cavalry Offensive (not counting "Tengri" -- but that'd bump it another 30% to 69%)
+95% Light Cavalry Defensive (not counting "Tengri" -- but that'd bump it another 30% to 125%)

+124% Horse Archers Offensive
+95% Horse Archers Defensive

+30% Camel Cavalry Offensive
+140% Camel Cavalry Defensive

+30% War Elephants Offensive
+140% War Elephants Defensive

 

[heliostellar]

This is an excellent summary. Would you consider updating the wiki or ping Meneth to see if he can
?

 

[Peter Kirby]

Thanks! I'd be happy to do so, if I know where it should all go and what should be included, per the wiki's expectations.

 

[Dracko81]

Are you using the cultural building bonuses in your calculations?

 

[Peter Kirby]

No, sir. The horde computations didn't include any cultural building bonuses (but maybe should--does somebody know what all of them are?).

The retinues include their default bonuses.

Calculations for levy units weren't made.

 

[Dracko81]

I suggest you fire up the game and run some tests. To my knowledge there should be changes to how retinues work. Including that retinues should now get cultural building bonuses.

 

[Peter Kirby]

Thanks. This is the kind of feedback that I need. But I don't think I know how I'd test whether retinues actually get cultural building bonuses in-game. I read that they took them away and instead replaced it with bonuses for retinues based on the retinue itself, not the capital. Did they bring it back to how it was? I'd be happy to revise it with more accurate information.

I guess I could just start a game and cheat a bit, seeing roughly how things go with and without a capital loaded up with buildings...

 

[Greybeard0815]

There is a small mistake. There is no nomad retinue that has 225 LC and 25 HC. It is HA. But still good job and nice read.

 

[Peter Kirby]

There is a small mistake. There is no nomad retinue that has 225 LC and 25 HC. It is HA. But still good job and nice read.

Thank you. Good catch!

I've updated the original post.

 

[Dracko81]

Retinues never used to get the building bonuses.

 

[Peter Kirby]

I used the bonuses listed on this page:

http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Retinues

So there are cultural bonuses ("unique effects") in the calculations, but they are based on the numbers on that page.

I don't know if the wiki made a mistake or something... I'd like to know, if so.

Are the values on the wiki page added to the capital building bonuses for retinues? Or is the wiki wrong entirely? How does it work?

 

[Peter Kirby]

Specifically, this is what I read.

http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Retinues

Starting with patch 2.2, cultural retinues no longer receive the special bonuses as granted by the highest-level cultural buildings. Instead, each cultural retinue has new unique effects as outlined in the table below.

 

[Dracko81]

As I said cultural retinues never got bonuses from cultural buildings. They however should now. The bonus that is referred to on the wiki, was not linked to the buildings at all. It was a straight bonus. 2.2 is different from 2.4, so you should research the differences between the two.

 

[Peter Kirby]

I looked through the patch notes and didn't come up with anything really, but then I found this:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ase-stop-doing-things-i-disagree-with.869920/

It is pretty common knowledge now that retinues get the bonus from your cultural buildings in the new patch, despite the patch notes not mentioning it. If I had to mock up how it'd look:

- Retinues now gain the bonuses granted by cultural buildings in your capital holding.

Neato! This should provide about the same bonus to everyone, though it'll give uneven benefits, as some stats are better than others - the Scottish +60% defense will benefit pikemen far more than the Italian +60% morale, for instance, but as we know from your ridiculous nerfs to light infantry you aren't very good at balancing things against each other. However, this provides a huge problem to merchant republics, which have cities as their main holdings, and cities do not get cultural buildings.

I guess the question I have now is this:

Does this get added to the values listed in the table at the wiki, or is this just the new system, and retinues have no such bonuses without buildings to boost them?

(a) If they get added together, then the spreadsheet is showing all calculations on the assumption that there are no cultural buildings in the capital boosting the retinues.
(b) If they don't exist for retinues (without a building in the capital to provide them), then I can actually fix the spreadsheet pretty easily, if so (it's easy to zero them out).

I.e., do the retinues keep the "straight bonus" from the "unique effect" listed in the tables on the wiki?

Thanks for bringing my attention to this issue.

 

[Carsomyr Khan]

Are you taking into account the Force Back tactic, which has a rather high chance to fire for both pure pike and pure HI flanks? It really makes a big difference for HI flanks when it fires instead of a preferred advance tactic.

 

[fridabina]

The fact that the Horse Lords DLC nerfed horse archers from being excellent retinues into being the absolute worst in every situation seems weird to me. The biggest offender i suppose is the current setup of tactics and the huge nerf to skirmish damage on all units.
You would think that if two nomad armies of similar size, one with horse archers mixed in and the other with pure light cavalry, it would be a close fight favoring the horse archer army.
But the current setup with tactics make it so that if the horse archer army rolls a Swarm tactic they pretty much lost and even if they don't the horse archers will mostly drag down the whole flank with their shitty stats. Seems odd to me.

 

[Peter Kirby]

Are you taking into account the Force Back tactic, which has a rather high chance to fire for both pure pike and pure HI flanks? It really makes a big difference for HI flanks when it fires instead of a preferred advance tactic.

Thanks for asking. Yes.

The original spreadsheet has a ton of data and formulas that anyone can dig into if they really want to:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gWIhzzCuPxW0U9ymsY3PsU_DC5pI580MH-9gUuA32GY/

But since it relies on a function external to the spreadsheet, sometimes Google gives it errors. So I put a more stable spreadsheet with just values in the OP for general viewing.

You should check it out for the nitty gritty details, however. If you understand the notation anyway... ask me anything.

 

[Peter Kirby]

Incidentally, I should mention that, while some morale bonuses are listed in the tables, morale plays no part in the actual computations of combat values.

That's simply calculated by adding together two numbers:

( % Time Spent in Skirmish During First 36 Days ) * SQRT( Skirmish Attack * Skirmish Defense ) +
( % Time Spent in Melee During First 36 Days ) * SQRT( Melee Attack * Melee Defense )

The respective "Attack" and "Defense" values are themselves broken down into their constituent components according to: (a) army proportions and (b) tactic proportions, with all the appropriate modifiers in each case. So if you have just a single tactic and a single unit type, it can be very simple. If you have many unit types and many tactics, it can be very complex. (The archer builds were especially tedious to work with. The Altaic horse archer units with "retreat" were a special headache at first, but I think I cracked the problem. I even tried to be kind to the horse archer units, made an exception, and gave them a single melee phase but two skirmish phases, extending the fight duration considered over about 60 days, but they still seem lackluster.)

At the end of that, what you get is an estimate of the fighting power of a single unit in the flank. (If the unit is of mixed composition, then it's a fictional "single unit" with fractions.)

If you want to understand the fighting power scale, it is as simple as this: If one unit has twice the fighting power of another, it should perform roughly just as well against an army twice the size. (But bear in mind, in the spreadsheet, a typical AI enemy levy is always considered to be the opponent, so this is not for retinue-on-retinue calculations.)

But since you have different costs for different retinue compositions, that value is then divided by the cost per single unit in order to get the fighting power per retinue cap cost.

There are still some limitations (mentioned at the bottom of the first page of the spreadsheet), but overall it's a pretty good estimate.

The initial 36-day window is one of a few simplifications made (there are some) but should really be enough to do a comparison of retinue types. Partly I wanted to give skirmish a chance. Even so, they are, currently, basically the weaker of the two types of forces.

 

[Eslin]

I'm a bit confused. I've been looking through your maths and the bonuses from cultural buildings seem to be completely missing - is there a reason you didn't include them?